Gender

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The hottest debate in the evangelical church today is the debate on the role of women in the church. In June I will be conducting a seminar on this Gender Debate and we will be discussing some important issues about the role of women in the church. I would hope for us to talk about 1 Timothy2:1-20 on this blog as an introduction to this seminar.

How should we interpret this verse today?

1 Timothy 2:1-20

I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.
I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Godbless,

Rob Santiago

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53 thoughts on “Gender

  1. wow! that’s a touchy subject. as I could see no reply’s yet. thanks a lot rob. I can’t wait for that debate coming up. there’s a lot of way’s you can look at this scripture. let me just start digging my whole now. lifting of holy hands without anger or disputing. that’s ruff there is so many disagreements in the church. our goal is to be like minded. just like our goal is to be holy and righteous! it’s an awesome goal but we fall short. praise God for grace! of course we want our women to be modest. but come on. who doesn’t love the braids with the pearl and the gold. maybe that’s the problem? to the big issue. do not permit a women to teach or have authority over a man? which women and which man are you talking about? because if were talking sister Neville. then what man in our fellowship is not under her authority? who can say that when she teaches the Holy Spirit moves in a powerful way? her wisdom is obviously from God. I strive to have that relationship that she has with God.

  2. Well There is no doubt some concern correlating this scripture with our fellowships current situation. We see Paul’s implication to be very specific (teaching, under men, etc.) this could potentially start some debate in our own church. I only bring up this topic in defense of Sister Neville. There is no doubt that she is the best teacher and preacher we have in our fellowship, I myself have caught myself being touched in my seat listening to her knowledge come about the sanctuary. If I was half the teacher/preacher she is I would be amongst the top 5 teachers in our fellowship.

    So where should we draw the line with this particular passage then? Ralph you and I both come into agreement that Sister Neville is filled with the Holy Spirit. What do you think Paul means and how should we examine this scripture in the defense of our fellowship?

    What would you do if someone from another church had a problem with our fellowship being ran by a women and they decided to throw this passage in your face?

  3. like I said it really depends on which women your talking about. the scripture clearly say’s a women. he doesn’t say all women. clearly we could look to pastor Donna Neville to see that she is full of the Holy Spirit and she is obedient to that spirit. I have had people throw that scripture in my face. many times. by people of other faiths. even by new comers in the church. people that have been there two or three years still might struggle with it. my answer is always this. just like the first disciples that found Jesus. they ran to tell there brothers that they have found the messiah. but you can’t explain Jesus. all you can do is say come and see for yourself. because His words are like no other. same goes for pastor Donna Neville. all I can say is come see for yourself and see if your not moved in your spirit. if you don’t agree after hearing the word. then I believe it’s your spirit that needs to be checked. there are many women who have the gift of preaching. I think we should be one of the main churches encouraging women to teach and to search out the women who have the gift. who knows if there is a Joyce Myers in our fellowship? who benefits from holding women back? I remember when I first started teaching I was a wreck. should I have given up? thinking I don’t have the gift that pastor Robert has. no! I pressed on and allowed God to teach. not to rely on my own resources. but to learn how to connect with The True Vine. that’s the only way my gift will flow. I hope and pray that our fellowship will take a stand for the encouraging of women to teach and preach. if they don’t learn in bible study. how will they be ready to preach at a women’s discipleship? must you wait until your husband becomes pastor before you preach???? enquiring minds want to know?

  4. I read the scripture pertaining to women having rule/authority over men.

    Although I do not agree with a woman pastor, I do agree that women can be used to teach and minister to other people.

    I would go back to listing Esther, Ruth, Rachel, Raehab, etc. These were very influential women-not to mention the women of the new testament.

    I have seen first hand the great anointing of many women who come and deliver a word to women and men as well. Your church’s women’s biblestudy last Monday is a good example. (June 28th)

    Praise Chapel doesn’t want women to teach but they want women to pray for other women. With this responsibility, there is teaching involved. In studying the bible, in learning scripture and cultivating our prayer lives and our Spiritual lives we then learn to minister to others.

    What is a woman doing when she shares her faith with a stranger on the street? She is ministering – we as women don’t leave all of the saving to the men only. The bible tells us that the harvest is truly plenteous but the laborers are few. It did not say that only the men will preach salvation to the world.

    As another example, then why do we listen to Christian ROCK, RAP, etc. why do we use electric guitars and electric keyboards, why do we not just play with cymbals and harps and flutes? Because we evolved and we are not in Moses days. What is Fresh Fire but lots of Rock style songs?? So, just like our instruments evolve, so have our lives.

    There are many books on prayer, on being a better mother, wife, etc. that are written by Christian women that are excellent books. In essence they are teaching men and women. If you want to know what it feels like to birth a child you will not ask a man – you will ask a woman. A man does not have the answers to every issue in the world. That’s why God gave Eve to Adam – so that they would complement each other. We need you and you need us.

    The Holy Spirit is not given only to the men of this world but to the women as well. We are also given the gift of the Holy Spirit and we are also anointed by God to do many things in His name. I believe that women teaching and ministering and sharing is one of them.

    If a congregation is blessed by another woman’s teaching then that honors God. If we do things that do NOT honor God, then I would agree with you.

    I don’t agree that a woman should be the Pastor of a church but I do strongly agree that women can teach.

  5. I thought I would post a couple of definitions:

    Complementarianism:
    Position: The Bible teaches that men and women are of equal worth, dignity, and responsibility before God (ontological equality). The Bible also teaches that men and women have different roles to play in society, the family, and the church (functional inequality). These roles do not compete but complement each other. This is illustrated (not evidenced) in the doctrine of the Trinity. All members of the Godhead are equal in essence (ontological equality), but have distinct roles (functional inequality).

    Adherents: Wayne Grudem, John Piper, Douglas Moo, Charles Swindoll, John MacArthur, Tom Schreiner, Daniel Wallace.

    Egalitarianism:
    Position: The Bible teaches that all people are of equal value. Therefore, women are not in any sense, functionally or ontologically, subservient to men. Women and men hold ministry positions according to their gifts, not their gender. The principle of mutual submission teaches that husbands and wives are to submit to each other equally.

    Adherents: N.T. Wight, Gregory Boyd, Stanley Grenz, William Webb, Gordon Fee, Craig Keener, Ruth Tucker.

    source: Parachment & Pen

  6. ” i believe the women is to remain silent, and should be cooking for the men in the back while service is going on”….. – just kidding, i just wanted your attention!
    i believe it is important to see that in the scripture he states ” i do not permit ” not ” you or we “should not permit. he is speaking for himself, and explains why he doesn’t permit women to teach. and i believe many men take this scripture out of context and others about submission of women to thier husbands and rule their wives and homes like a tyrient with and iron fist.being controlling and even over talking them in normal everyday conversation, and trying to back it up with the bible.
    my question is why we have a woman pastor, woman children church teachers,woman ushers, but a woman can’t teach a bible study? (and maybe if he could have met donna neville, he would have had a different opinion on the subject)

  7. So where do we draw the line between pastoring and teaching biblically? How do we set this boundary when Paul states teaching specifically in this passage? I assume, Arcelia, in your defense you take Paul’s scripture when he states that a women should not be over a man to be interpreted as pastoring.

    However, the passage still states, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to TEACH or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.”

    How can we choose to accept one part of the passage and not the other (Teaching)? This question is for everyone and is not solely directed to Arcelia. Thanks for your posting on this issue Arcelia you bring a highly adopted perspective to this topic.

  8. Good point Rob! how can you except one part of the scripture and disregard the rest? Arcelia? how you do that? but isn’t that what we do with so many scriptures? take what we like and disregard the thing that don’t apply to us? like the covering of the head? 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. how many times do we break scripture. and like Rob say’s where do we draw the line? when do we become legalistic?

  9. Hello everyone,

    I guess I can go into many examples, but for the sake of space I’ll just list a few 🙂

    First, yes, we could take only parts of scripture and apply them and then not apply other parts. I will start by saying that back in Jesus day – women were lot allowed INSIDE the church. So, does this mean that all of the women are in sin by going INTO the church sanctuary? No. Does the bible tell us “thall shall not DRINK BEER, SMOKE, DO DRUGS” No it doe not. So then why do we not do it? There is no scripture that tells me not do do this? My bible states “be not drunk with wine”. Now, Jesus drank wine – daily. So do we condem the Lord for this – no. We could take that particular scripture and disect it for weeks, but what value will that add to Praise Chapel today? None. Let us not get so “caught up” in women teaching.

    We as children of God many times major in the minors and minor in the majors. In otherwards, we get “stuck” if you will, on petty things. Instead of arguing over women teaching, why can we not put forth the same effort to allow God to be glorified on their behalf with their teachings.

    Let me put it this way, what is the harm in a woman ministering to the youth about “drugs”. I will use Marla as an example and I hope she does not mind. I believe that if the teenagers were to hear Marla give her testimony and teach them about not doing drugs, etc. it would GREATLY bless them. Why? Because many of them have probably NEVER done drugs. She would be able to open their eyes in ways that many of you men will never be able to do – myself included. Why? Because you and I don’t have that experience but she does.

    I will give the example again of Joyce Myers, she is greatly gifted in teaching. Many women travel all over the world and teach and minister to others. I do not think that Joyce has less anointing than Pastor Omar? Does anyone else?

    God uses a WILLING vessel gentlemen. Let us be careful not to portray women as “less” than a man or only as “servants” and “cooks, housecleaners and mothers”. We are so much more than that to the Lord. God tells us that we are all fearfully and wonderfully made.

    A true child of God is always willing to be used of God. We are not placed in this Body of Christ to pick each other apart and to judge whether a woman can teach or not. Brothers, where is our “out of the box” attitude. Why are we bucking up so hard on this issue?

    I regard Pastor Omar’s wife highly. I see her as NO LESS than her husband but as his helpmate. It is my understanding that she ministered at the Women’s Retreat last November. Was this okay with you because she only ministered to women and not to the men? Are her words only valid for women and not good enough for the men of Prasie Chapel? Of course not.

  10. wow! no comments from all our scholars? once again you drive a good point home that we all already agree with. the question is why do you agree with the preaching and teaching but don’t feel a women should be a pastor? thank you for being the only brave women to comment on this subject. I guess it’s a lot easier for you since everyone doesn’t know you. but I love to hear your point of view.

  11. Hi Ralph,

    Not agreeing with a woman being a pastor is my personal opinion. I also do not agree with Christian Rap and Christian rock. But that’s just me – I do not condem anyone else who does as I’m sure many of the Fresh Fire Youth love that type of praise music.

    In the beginning God made Adam and then He created Eve. So in my heart, God wants for the man to be the head of the home and church. Someone has to be the leader – let’s get that out of the way. And between the man and the woman I believe that the Lord appointed the man to be the leader of His flock. God chose Saul to be king, then David, etc. there were never any Queen’s that lead the country – regarding Queen Esther – she was under the direction of her husband – he was the leader of that country not her.

    Again,I have nothing against women pastors.

  12. I want everyone to keep in mind that I only bring this topic up to educate each other on an evangelical issue in our Christian communities. I wanted us to dissect the opposing view points from our church because not everyone is familiar with them. Let me make this clear that I did not bring up this topic because I disagree with what is going on in our current church.

    Arcelia I apologize if you are offended by us posting this issue. I simply wanted us to examine this scripture together as a group. I will be conducting a seminar in June on this topic to promote studying Theology.

    Please keep in mind that there are other topics on this blog that you can comment to if you dont want to dissect this issue. However this is a Gender Post, It may seem that we are “bucking up, hard” on this issue, but believe me we have not scratched the surface on this issue yet.

    To answer your question Arcelia, I am a big Egalitarian, and I believe that it is fine that Pastor Omar’s wife minister to men, she has ministered to me personally before. I am sorry that you felt I wasn’t ok with this, but I am not sure where you got that idea from. Please interpret my questions to be encouragement to look into the topic deeper. I ask all of us to not assume a point of view based on the individuals questioning.

    Arcelia you have a great point of view, and I encourage you to keep sharing it on this Gender topic.

    There will be more controversial topics like this one in the future. We also want to make sure that everyone is comfortable posting our blog and not intimidated. Everyone please feel free to share.

  13. Reposted: From Ralph:

    Sorry Pastor Robert, that’s all my fault. I had the wrong idea about this blog. I thought it was more based on 2 Timothy 3:16 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, I invited other people to the blog because I was tired of talking to my self. I would like to see if I could be the first one kicked off the blog because I love to argue. if we have scripture to back up what we say. where is the harm in that? we all love each other? right? sorry! I invited people that will speak there minds and hearts and not hide in a closet or behind a bunch of questions. I was way off on this blog. I’ll go back to e-mailing where they can’t see your face. :]
    oh! I almost forgot Pastor Robert, you commented on the wrong blog.

  14. Ralph,

    don’t worry you are in for life, no plans on kicking you or anyone out at this moment 😉

    There is no harm in backing what you say with Scripture. There are just some assumptions being made, that are incorrect. No body here is arguing that women cannot teach, nor that women cannot be pastors. We are only presenting the positions and are discussing them.

    There is no reason to hide in a closet, and this is a great place to have dialog. As long as we stick to the point, and not assume others positions. Rob never stated that he was against women in any form, but those assumptions were being made. I think he stated very clearly his position.

    So don’t leave Ralph we love your dialog.

    Pastor Robert
    P.S. I know that I posted in the wrong place, I deleted and reposted here, with some corrections.

  15. Brother Rob and Pastor Robert,

    First let me say that the word “arguing” was a bad choice of words on my part. I’m sorry about that and please forgive me if I came off as being argumentative as that was not my intention at all when I posted my comments. Nor did I ever think that you Rob felt that Pastor Omar’s wife should not minister;I simply used her as an example.

    In posting my opinions, I was merly commenting on a question that Ralph and I have previously discussed. When this topic came up on your blog, he forwarded me your site and invited me to comment. I was not aware that this site was primarily for PBI students.

    In my mind I was not arguing or getting out of hand with any of my comments Pastor Robert. I apologize if I came across to you in that manner.

    As a woman who has taught and ministered before I am passionate about people allowing the Lord to use anyone that is willing to share His news.

    I feel a little out of place here since I am not a member of Praise Chapel and just a visitor on occasion. I have my own church that I attend and I do practice teaching other women under the direction of my pastor.

    I will probably keep my comments to a minimum in the future but thank you for the opportunity to post my thoughts on your blog.

  16. hi Arcelia, how can you not like rap and rock if it’s glorifying God? are we to bust out the harp and flute again? I think your in my bible study for a reason. Hillsong United is one of the most anointed bands that I’ve ever seen or herd. I put Pastor Kelly lorke’s wife number one. and Rita Springer #2 but United is right up there. I think there are so many things of God that we take personal. there just needs to be more of Him and less of us. strive to be like Enoch!

  17. Arcelia,

    We do welcome you, but I just want to make sure that everyone understands our purpose. I blog a lot so I understand that sometime tone is read into things that are not there at all.

    Also, this is a very controversial subject, and can become heated, so I wanted to make sure that all participants remain civil. Our clear objective is to understand what the positions are.

    Yes we feel the same way you do, that we should allow the Lord to use whom he desires to. So please continue to visit, respond, and interact we really do value your input. I don’t think that you got out of hand at all. Plus as we get to know each other we will become more comfortable with our writing styles.

    Blogging is not easy, and we have to choose our words wisely, because they are here for a very long time, and so often we are misunderstood.

    Blessings,
    Pastor Robert

  18. They didn’t kick me out! YEAH! Pastor Robert say’s I’m here to stay! Yeah! I wish someone else would blog on this subject. there was a whole lot of talking last night at class. but no action! where’s all my peeps!?!

  19. Ok ok…im blogging =)
    I just wasnt sure where to begin!

    When most women first read this passage, it is jarring even hurtful. I know that I felt this way when I did. Then you look into the issues that it really gets into. The way she worships, learns and speaks.

    “I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.”
    ~ We are talking not just about how to dress but how to approach our Lord. A woman should be demure and low key. She should not be the center of attention but the way that she acts in and outside the house of God is what is being looked at. God always looks at our hearts but man does not. So if we say that we love and worship God, we need to look like it on the outside also.

    “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.”
    This is a something that all women can benefit from…I did. How to have a quiet and teachable spirit. Not to be in control all of the time. (i know the men are saying amen) but i really feel strongly about this because of the kind of environment that I was raised in. In our relationship with God, we should be in full submission all of the time. (that is for all of us though) We should always learn quietly, not telling God what we think all of the time. Just take what He says as correct!

    “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.”
    This is the big one. In my own opinion, I think that being a pastor is appointed for a man. He is head of the household and therefore be head of a congregation. However, there are always exceptions to the rule =) As far as Pastor Donna goes, I love her being the head pastor. But she didnt start that way. She only came into that role when her husband passed away, it was appropriate that she took that place. God passed her the role. As far as being silent, that is where my question is. When are we to be silent? Just in the church? I cant imagine that he was speaking about 24 hours a day! Im hoping that I am sort of on the right path by saying that he meant there is an appropriate time for a women to speak?

    I actually have more to say on each of these topics but my time was limited.
    Karly =)

    (happy Ralph!?)

  20. Here is a thought. Many organization that do not or have not allowed women to be pastors, have allowed them to be missionaries in other countries. It seems that even those who interpret these verses in the strictest sense seem to contradict themselves.

  21. Ok, one last thought for now. Today’s NIV, which I favor over the NIV translates the verse like this:

    1 Tim 2:12
    12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; [a][b] she must be quiet.

    Footnotes:

    1. 1 Timothy 2:12 Or teach a man in a domineering way; or teach or to exercise (or have) authority over a man
    2. 1 Timothy 2:12 Â Or over her husband

  22. yes I’m very happy! very good blog. I was thinking that I was the only one with an opinion. I just hope that people are not intimidated by your theological mind and feel that they have to live up to the intelligence that you have. you and Robert left in a hurry last night. I had an extra NIV in my bag.

  23. P Rob,
    Gotcha on the translation. There is a time and a place. Sometimes as women (and it happens to everyone but it seems to happen more to women) we get ahead of ourselves and just say what we feel. Whether to our husbands, children, or friends. This is a very good scripture to keep in the back of the brain!

    Thanks Ralph…we ordered a bible for me last night =) Your thoughtfulness is too much ;0)

    Karly

  24. 1 Timothy 2:12

    In this verse Paul uses a Greek word that indicates the type of teaching that was found in the Jewish communities and synagogues from which he had come from. This type of teacher was a higher power, an overseer that would watch over the teachings (rabbi, etc.) Therefore Paul is refering to a woman not be an overseer over a man (like rabbi, high priest, etc.).

    It seems best to understand this passage that women can exercise their spiritual gifts in a variety of ministries in a local assembly as long as those gifts are exercised under the appropriate leadership of men. we see in Titus 2:3,4 That Paul expects women to teach. I dont think Paul is contradicting himself between Titus 2:3,4 and 1 Timothy 2:12, I believe we can understand his view to mean a man should always be overseeing in some way the teachings of a woman. This falls into holding eachother accountable! something that even men do to other men.

    Just a thought,

    Rob Santiago

  25. I think that if I were to take the alternate translation – which is a viable one, it would read like this

    TNIV 1 Tim 2:12

    1 Tim 2:12
    12 I do not permit a woman to teach a man in a domineering way;…

    When read that way, it is no way stating that a women should not teach, she should just not teaching in a domineering way. But Jesus also told his disciples that they should be servant leaders, and that they should not be domineering.

  26. Arcelia,

    you stated “Instead of arguing over women teaching, why can we not put forth the same effort to allow God to be glorified on their behalf with their teachings.”

    The purpose of this blog is not to argue or debate. The purpose is to learn and understand what the positions are today, and what others believe on the topic. We are not arguing if women can or cannot teach.

    We are all here to learn from each others. I understand and appreciate your opinion on the matter, however please keep in mind that goal here is to learn, and not debate.

    I also want to remind everyone what the purpose of our blog is, which is specified in our About section. It clearly states “Our blogs will be filled with theological diversity, and openness with an irenic tone that will encourage you to inquire.”

    That’s our goal to understand, even with a position that we do not agree with. We are all here to learn from each others. If any of the comments get out of hand or hijack the blog, or become heated and argumentative I will exercise my right as moderator to remove them. However I do exercise lots of self control, so you really have to be out of line not to be allowed to continue your dialog.

    Pastor Robert

  27. Ralph,

    I was thinking that I was the only one with an opinion. I just hope that people are not intimidated by your theological mind and feel that they have to live up to the intelligence that you have.

    Are you talking to me? Are you talking to me? Hey man lets all know who you are talking to, I guess you are talking to Karly, right? 😉

    Oh, and update to a TNIV, much better translation.

  28. Pastor Robert,

    yes that was directed to Karly. as men I don’t think were intimidated as much as the women. were to prideful. and think that we know it all. at least I do. I’m so glad I joined the PBI this year. because I’m learning so much every class. to bad I can only retain about 10% of everything. I do want to get a TNIV I found a real nice one for one of my disciples. but I haven’t got me one yet. I was born with my NIV so I know it better than any other bible. but I am a collector so I will get one ASAP. maybe Saturday? you should try the Berean in Fullerton. excellent book store with really good prices. http://www.berean.com/be/ I get most of my bibles at Costco. they do have a really good women’s devotional bible there right now for like $40. TNIV. do you know what version you daughter has? maybe I’ll pick one up for her birthday.

  29. Ralph,

    You bring up a great question and also a good point at the same time. In 1 Kings 10 we see the Queen of Sheba come and visit King Solomon because his name was becoming so great. We must keep in mind that society was familiar with women leaders.

    However, this topic of the gender debate is generally related to Jewish history/culture. We need to know what the early Jewish culture thought about women in leadership roles because this will have a direct reflection on the early church.

    I’m glad your brought that up Ralph, good job!

  30. “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent”

    I think that this verse is not talking about a womans role within the church. I think that it is directly referring to her relationship with her husband. It seems to me that a woman is not to correct, teach, or ridicule her husband. I think the more a woman submits herself to her husband and brings honor to God by doing so, she has the freedom to impart into her husbands life quietly and in the privacy of their home, where it belongs.
    By submitting herself, a woman grows spiritually. And God blesses that meek attitude. She learns kindness, patience, love, and long suffering. A woman that complains and nags only learns to have a bad attitude and eventually becomes rebllious to her husbands authority.

  31. Amen! preach it sister. sometimes it’s so hard for me to see the point of view of a women. I can hear a sermon and not think much of it and all the women in my bible study loved the message so much they are making copy’s for everyone they know. men and women are so different.

  32. Exactly Ralph…Men and Women are completely different. God intended men & women to thrive in the gender that HE gave us. In todays society, we get so caught up in career and status that as women we forget that we should be submissive and supportive. We just go for it sometimes and leave no prisoners. We want everything that a man or everyone else has that we do not place importance on who God has really made us. A helper, supporter, encourager, mother, friend…and a whole long list of other things! And to be those things, sometimes it requires us to be behind the scenes.

  33. Karly,

    I don’t know if you or anyone else listens to pastor Bob Coy at 11am on 107.9. but he’s doing an awesome study right now on marriage. he talks about how God made us different. how he took his masculine attributes and put them in to a man and His famine attributes and put them in to woman. when we join together as one. we make the best representation of God.
    http://www.activeword.org/radio/Archive.cfm

  34. Ralph,

    my daughter Renae has the Holman Christian Bible (CSB), I got it for her birthday – but I think she would also like the TNIV.

    I love the CSB translation. It is right smack between the ESV and TNIV. It reads very well, so that you are able to capture the meaning, and still remain literal. I have to tell you that they worked really hard at what they call Optimal Translation.

    Ok, I don’t want to hijack this blog and start talking about Bible translations. I’ll start a new blog with this topic as it seems to have a lot of interest to people.

  35. Arcelia had mentioned “there were never any Queen’s that lead the country” Although that is true, it is not entirely correct, in the sense that a women never led the country. Before there were kings in Israel they were ruled by Judges. There was one Judge that was a women, and her name was Deborah.

    Judges 4:4
    Deborah, a woman who was a prophet and the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time.

    If you study the history of the judges they were also the rulers. Here you have a clear example that God chose a women to rule over Israel. The scriptures do not say that she was appointed because no man was found, she was just appointed because God deemed it so. Which I think can give us a further basis for women leading, teaching, etc.

  36. wasn’t there also a women deacon?
    there was the Queen of Sheba who lead her people. queen Elizabeth from England

  37. Here is an interesting essay on the subject of Women’s ordination from the Churches historical perspective.

    Women’s Ordination
    By Frederica Mathews-Green

    Controversy over the ordination of woman has plagued many denominations, but it hasn’t raised similar furor in the Orthodox Church. This is thanks to our way of approaching such issues: if the early church kept unbroken consensus on a matter, we will continue it. Consensus is not obvious in every issue, but it is here. For 20 centuries stretching backward, there have been no women priests.

    There were plenty of women preachers, however. I’ve preached at worship services in Orthodox churches, myself.

    We have some semantic confusion here, because many things Protestants consider restricted to clergy are done by Orthodox laity. We have women saints who were missionary evangelists, church-planters, teachers, healers, preachers, apologists, spiritual mothers, counselors, miracle-workers, martyrs, iconographers, hymnographers, and theologians. Holy women do virtually everything men do, except stand at the altar. That leaves them rest of the world, which is where most of God’s work gets done.

    St. Theodora the Empress exercised authority over both men and women, and brought a triumphant end to the destruction of icons. St. Nina, a 14-year-old slave, evangelized the entire nation of Georgia. St. Mary Magdalene, St. Helen, and others are called “Equal to the Apostles.” St. Catherine and St. Perpetua were brilliant debaters. So I don’t mind if Protestant denominations want to ordain women. Many times, this just means allowing them to do things Orthodox women have always done.

    But even if we know our Church’s destination on this question, we still don’t know how they got there. Strangely enough, in the writings of the early church the question never comes up. It seems it just was never controversial. Throughout the ages, Orthodox women and men found the all-male priesthood a satisfactory, maybe even a positive, thing. How can we see what they saw?

    I don’t think we’ll get much help from the usual arguments. Opponents of women’s ordination often start by citing St. Paul’s requirement that women be submissive and silent in church (I Tim 2:11-15 and I Cor 14:34-35). Yet this can’t mean utter silence, because Paul honors many women in active ministry, like the deaconess Phoebe (Romans 16:1), and he hails Euodia, Synteche (I Cor 4:2-3) and Prisca (Rom 16:3) as synergoi (fellow-workers) in the gospel. Vocal prophetesses span the bible, from Moses’ sister Miriam (Ex 15:20) to the four daughters of St. Philip (Acts 21:9). The prophetess Anna spoke out in the temple, telling everyone about the child Christ (Lk 2:36-38).

    When read in context, it sounds like St. Paul is concerned about disorder in worship. In I Timothy, he admonishes men to pray “without anger or quarrelling” and tells women to be “in hesychia,” a state of prayerful stillness. In I Corinthians, Paul says it is “disgraceful” when women talk in church, and equally “disgraceful” when they pray without wearing a veil. Yet few who stand on the former text insist that women wear veils in church.

    Here’s another argument: a priest must be male because he represents Christ. When I was attending a mainline seminary and aiming toward ordination myself, I would say, sure, Christ was male, and he was also Jewish, and a certain height and hair color. Why is only his maleness indispensable? Surely the fact that he was Jewish is even more significant, but we don’t exclude from ordination people who don’t have Jewish genes.

    We don’t find this argument used in the early church; in fact, early Christians reflected very little on why Christ was male. Instead, they emphasized the fact that he was human. As Bp. Kallistos Ware points out, Christ’s maleness isn’t even mentioned in the hymns appointed for the Feast of the Circumcision, which would seem the likeliest spot. There might be good practical and theological reasons why Jesus was born male, but the early church did not explore them.

    Another familiar line goes, “But we’re not putting women down. Women and men are equal. They just have different roles.” Okay, but this still doesn’t answer the question. Sure, every person has a unique calling, and every role is “different” from every other. What is it about the priesthood that requires maleness?

    In 1988 an Orthodox consultation met in Rhodes and considered some aspects of women’s ministries. They recommended resuming the lapsed practice of ordaining women deacons, and they suggested that in the all-male priesthood there was a correspondence between the priest and Christ, and between the Virgin Mary Theotokos and the Church.

    But they were reluctant to explain too much: “We are in a sphere of profound, almost indescribable experience of the inner ethos of the world-saving and cosmic dimensions of Christian truth.”

    Not everyone is satisfied with ineffability. When you wonder why there’s this pattern of all-male ordination, some people have a ready answer: it’s because the early Christians were dumb. We know better now. Somehow the concept of evolution leaks over from biology to theology, and it’s presumed that our generation is what the Holy Spirit was aiming at when he came out with flawed prototypes like St. Macrina and St. John Chrysostom.

    I suspect the reverse is true, and that we’re blind to some spiritual realities that were obvious to earlier Christians. Take the value of male and female virginity, for example. I once spent a year reading intensively about saints, and at the end I was convinced that earlier generations knew something we don’t. They knew that virginity is a source of great spiritual power.

    (Christianity isn’t alone in valuing virginity; other great world religions also consecrate male and female monastics. I like the line in the film “Keeping the Faith” where, after a series of nosy questions about celibacy, a Catholic priest mutters, “They sure don’t ask the Dalai Lama those questions.”)

    When it comes to understanding the power of virginity or gender differences or anything else related to sex, there’s a good chance we just won’t get it. We live under the bombardment of continual targeted, intoxicating messages about sex, which present it in a radically anti-wholistic way, as if it’s something that happens to an empty body. Consumer-culture sex is an isolated mechanical act with no relation to a person’s past, future, emotions, relationships, or health. But in reality, sex always occurs in a complete embodied life, one humming with ceaseless spiritual and emotional activity. In this windstorm of messages, two significant truths are being suppressed: that the underlying urge is still to reproduce; and that sex requires a lot of vulnerability, so the most desired quality in a partner is trust.

    Since we can’t understand sex in the instinctive, body-deep ways our ancestors did, it’s natural that we won’t understand sex differences. We don’t see any more how savory and good these differences are. While you could sort humans in many ways–by height or shoe size or age–the all-time favorite is by sex. We just get a kick out of gender differences, even though most of the human body plan is shared by men and women alike. It’s the distinctives that we highlight: women’s clothes suggest an hourglass figure no matter what shape the lady inside, while men’s jackets are enhanced by brawny padded shoulders. After a birth the first thing we want to know is “Boy or girl?,” and lumpy, indistinguishable newborns are stuffed into baseball costumes or palest pink. We pass along gender-based jokes, because clumsy stereotypes point toward something that fascinates and delights us. The difference between the sexes is the most cheerful and exhilarating thing we know: it’s where babies come from. The difference between the sexes is how we partner with God in the creation of life.

    If we can’t understand the difference between male and female, we sure can’t understand what previous generations knew about the value of an all-male priesthood. I can only hope that some future generation will regain the peace and clarity we’ve lost, and be able once again recognize and enunciate this mystery.

    http://www.frederica.com/writings/womens-ordination.html

  38. Thanks Rob. I”ve been Descerning over this topic, ever since I found out at Havesters that our lead Pastor is a women.
    But reading all of these comments really helps.
    As of this moment I don’t think any women should have authority over men or hold a position over a men in ministry, When I speak of men, I mean men of God. I was taught at Praise Chapel that the man is the pastor of his home, and the women should submit to her husband. And when it comes to ministry, it is at a higher level of pastoring and submition.
    Again thanks Rob. I’m still learning the word and learning to submit to God’s authority.
    oh, and Ralph don’t you have a job!?.

  39. why does everyone have to hate. because I have a job that I’m at my desk all day. and I can take order’s all day and still give my opinion. while I listen to pastor Bob coy and search the internet and e-mail people I minister to all day. don’t hate. find yourself a new job. not to brag or boast! but I sold over $500,000 worth of flooring this month. so don’t hate because I’m good at my job and I do multi-ministries. oh, and Angel you do realize Pastor Donna is over many men? who all love her. I love to hear pastor Kelly, Omar, Abraham, and all the other pastors give her the respect that she deserves every time they preach.
    pastor Robert, I think my picture wasn’t working because some how I changed my user name? we will see after I post this.

  40. Ralph, Don’t get me wrong.I do think Pastor Danna is a great women of God with a great annointing. she has all my respect. I just can’t find a scripture that say the a woman can have authority over men.That is why I like to read this Blog, maybe I can find an understanding.I don’t thing about it much anymore. I just going to submit to my Pastors and let God’s will be done. Who am I to say what is right and what is wrong. Like I said I am still learning. And asking God for understanding and wisdom. Is this not the place enter your thoughts and gain some understanding. or should i look somewhere else?

    About your job. That is cool.

  41. Angel,

    I am glad that you have stopped by! You nailed why we are here, and that is the reason I started this blog, for all us to gain understanding! It’s just another method of teaching through PBI.

    For a long time I was against women as Pastors, but my position has changed. The problem with a lot of passages in scripture is that we allow our emotions to get in the way due to long held beliefs. But over the years I have taken a hard look at those and other verses and have changed my position as to how I understand and interpret those verses.

    Also, I have recently started reading a lot on the early church fathers, and they were very favorable towards women, in teaching positions. It was just not an issue.

    What about the other references that we have in the New Testament, where women prophesy, testify, teach, learn, hosted churches, acted independently as letter-bearers and receivers of letters. There were leading women, coworkers and an apostle. Women were not excluded from the discourse. They did not make up a different class of participants.

    In light of that we have to seek deeper as to what Paul was talking about. Or we have a contradiction, where in one place they are being commended, and in another they are being told to shut up. I don’t think that there is a contradiction at all, we just need to sort out what was going on, and why he said what he said.

  42. Thanks Pastor Robert. This is a great sight to ask someone for understanding and wisdom. some times our Paster’s and leader’s have a lot on their plates and don’t have the time. but atleast here someone will get back to you with an answer or even a prayer.

    Ralph i also have a desk job.

  43. Angel, don’t get me wrong in any way, I’m just put out there what I believe. If my tone seems out of place at all. I don’t me to that’s just the way I talk. I think I’m a very meek person when I’m in person unless were in bible study or playing a sport. which you have done both with me. but I think this is an awesome site where we can discuss other things than the Lakers. but I thank Pastor Robert and Rob for providing different scripture’s where we can see women were in authority. but Angel I love your point of your just going to submit to your Pastor and move in the blessing that our church gives us. I think we have such a unique church. it took me year’s and a word directly from God for me to stop what I believed. God told me I’m not asking you to believe. I’m asking you to Obey. after that, I had to apologize to my bible study leader and be submissive to what he wanted me to do. like Pastor Robert was preaching wed. night. I thought I was saved longer and knew more than my bible study leader. but it’s not about what you know. it’s about Who you know and where you heart is. after I started being obedient Gods been blessing me ever since!

  44. Ralph there has been something heavy in my hart. God has gave all of us gifts that we are to use to gloryfy God. but if we do not use are gifts with out the fruit of the spirit and it means nothing. what dod you think?

    oh and GO San Antonio!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  45. knotquiteawake(Maria?), I had to go to lunch to read that long article that you posted. and I thank you. it backs up many things I said in the beginning and really does have a lot of good points I suggest you all read it when you have time? not everyone is blessed with the time that I have.

  46. Angel, I think if your in Praise Chapel then God has called you here for a reason. like I said earlier,”our church has a very unique calling” there is no denying that God is moving in our congregation. don’t feel bad if you haven’t discovered your gift yet. or if you have discovered it and are not yet using it. the best advice I can give you is something that Pastor Larry said. don’t worry about the fruit your producing. worry more about your relationship with your Heavenly Father. He is the vine and we are the branches. if you have an orange tree you get oranges. if you have an apple tree you have apples. but what happens when you don’t water or feed that tree? you get nothing. there fore if your relationship with your Heavenly Father is being feed. you will produce fruit. it’s just one of His laws. but it’s all in Gods timing. don’t rush your fruit. are you going to world conference this year?

  47. Rob, that was a great post by your buddy, I was wondering who that was. Just thought it was a passer by. We must have been thinking the same thing, as I asked a couple of my blogger friends to stop by and comment if they see anything that is of interest to them.

    Nick already stop by and corrected me on translations regarding the KJV, he reminded me that it is God’s true word for all of us. 😉 I also invited my friend Sam to stop by and post, he is working on his Doctorate.

  48. Ralph,

    If I didn’t know you personally I would think that you were pretty combative, and your tone out of place 😉

    But thank God I do know you, cuz when I read your post I just envision you talking to me and we are both laughing, and joking. Writing is different than talking and many who don’t know you will read into you tone – so beware!

  49. I really liked that article. Especially the last paragraph. It makes so much sense. How are we supposed to figure out what Gods word means in the fullest if we dont even have each other figured out? It makes me realize that even though we all have our differences of opinion, God chose to bring us all together anyway. We will never know Gods full reason for doing anything. That is not how he made us. We can only see glimpses and try to catch on. We just have to sit back and watch how His hand is in everything and everywhere.

    Btw…im really loving this blogging thing =)
    K

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